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Hi, welcome to Sober Banter, and I'm Colin.
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And I'm Rachel.
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And our guest today is Brian.
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Doctor Brian.
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No, yes, Doctor Brian.
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It's Laquan.
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Laquan, yes.
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We are excited because actually you'll be our first guest that,
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you know,
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is not in recovery,
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but you specialize in recovery.
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I mean, you are, I mean, I would say an expert as a psychologist with a PhD in psychology.
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And more importantly, kind of, I saw a lot of your background.
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Not only have you wrote, written a book about kind of talking about loved ones into
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treatment center or into recovery,
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kind of going that path,
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but also with,
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I think I saw a lot of insomnia training as well,
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which is very interesting.
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So maybe tell us a little bit about yourself.
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Yes, I'm a California licensed psychologist and you're correct.
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And, uh, um,
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I worked in treatment recovery for almost 15 years.
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I've been in clinical practice combined with training and licensure for almost 20 years.
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And absolutely correct.
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I also had a specialization in insomnia,
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which goes hand-in-hand definitely for people in recovery.
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It's usually a significant predictor for substance relapse.
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It is.
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Yes, it is.
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In some research, usually people who...
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are going to relapse on a substance after a period of sobriety or recovery usually
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aren't well-rested,
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you know,
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typically speaking.
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So at least it's one potential predictor for someone kind of lighting up the
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perfect storm for a potential relapse.
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Not a sure shot indicator, but it's definitely a... No, like your risk level.
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Yeah,
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your heightened risk level because without...
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Because stress levels and anxiety increase or depression or trauma,
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then you're probably not sleeping well as well,
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so...
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Yeah,
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and then I like to go and give talks,
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a lot of media coverage,
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which as a speaker as well.
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So through the National Alliance on Mental Illness for almost 15 years as well,
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been providing help to family members who have loved ones struggling with substance
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abuse or mental health and don't want help.
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And more recently PALS, which stands for Parents of Addicted Loved Ones.
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And so I provide knowledge forums and write articles
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for them as well.
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So just really enjoy getting out there and spreading mental health awareness.
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One of the things that I did also see that stood out in your book,
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which is really nice is a lot of the reviews that it was like a really easy read.
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It didn't feel like overly.
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Cause it, I know for me, um, having two parents in one sober, one, not it, it's very emotional.
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And to know that something's an easy read is very comforting because it can almost
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provoke anxiety.
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Just.
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that on the other side as the person who's sober wanting to get the other person
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because you never know how they're going to react.
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So knowing that your book is labeled as very well,
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it's easy to read,
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you know,
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it's not it's going to teach you different leverages and you know how to kind of go
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into that accepting mode,
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which is again,
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it's the mental health of the other side to not just the addict,
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but the loved one helping them.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And if I may share where the book sort of came from,
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it was because people that it's a very common question,
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like,
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you know,
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you know,
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where the impetus to write the book or,
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you know,
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what was the driving force behind that and where it was with all those different things.
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Venues where I would speak,
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whether it be in treatment centers,
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helping family members,
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helping people navigate through their early recovery or sobriety and through the
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support groups that I had provided or even talks that I give,
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whether it be a church or a company business.
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And a lot of the questions during the Q&A portion of it was that they were out of solutions.
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They didn't really they felt very helpless.
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And a lot of these questions were very, very consistent in terms of the topics or the content.
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And as well as my interventions and recommendations were all so very consistent and thematic.
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And so I decided that putting this in some consolidated form,
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in a form of a book or a self-guide,
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would really help people out there fill what I believe is a void.
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And I always talk about this because,
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you know,
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in my field,
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substance recovery,
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mental health have been around for decades.
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And I truly thought that there was something out there already, right?
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And then when I find,
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when I'm asking individual clients and family members or people in support groups
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or people of different
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recovery groups.
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I said,
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is there anything like that,
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like a manual that provides a step-by-step process to get their loved one to a
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point of maybe accepting,
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increase the probability of accepting help?
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But they said,
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no,
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we have maybe a book on setting healthy boundaries,
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a book on self-care,
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a book on
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and such and forth regarding that, but nothing comprehensive.
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And so that's where I started to write the book.
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And I also sort of to your comment was I wanted a timeless,
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easy to read manual where someone as young as 12 years old can read and comprehend it.
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And so you're not going to find a lot of medical terminologies.
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You're not going to find a lot of research dates.
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And because I want it to be a timeless manual because depression 30 years ago will
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look like depression 30 years from now.
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You know,
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and so will substance addiction,
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so will anxiety,
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trauma,
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the treatment approaches,
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maybe the medications may change,
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but the entity,
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the disease itself will pretty much be the same.
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And so that's kind of where that came from.
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But another unique way that you kind of go about the perspective is in an exercise form,
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the Brazilian jujitsu.
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and how that's incorporated into um because you know our whole podcast was built
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off of we couldn't find comedy recovery and we love comedy and there is a sense of
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a almost dark humor in some of the links we went to and how it sounded so okay in
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the moment and then you get sober and you're like
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How did I think that that was normal?
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Um, but you don't know till you're out of it.
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Um,
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so I think exercising is just,
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uh,
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equally as a different path as a way to like,
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enjoy the recovery.
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Actually my whole family, my wife and my daughter and my son and myself.
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are all trained and my son and I actually compete in Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
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And so there are so many metaphors,
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especially with any sports or anything that we do that's pretty arduous and tough.
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But there's a lot of metaphors that I use in my clinical practice.
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and that guide it in terms of what happens on that mat.
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And the mats are a place designed to showcase not only your strengths,
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but to highlight a lot of your deficiencies and weaknesses.
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And how do you navigate through those?
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And will you navigate through those by thinking of solutions and starting to get
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comfortable in those really,
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really uneasy places.
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And that is one of the most critical approaches for dealing with
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conditions that involve anxiety or even phobias is you get comfortable to a level
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of being exposed to those entities that are causing a great deal of distress.
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And so,
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yeah,
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I think there's just metaphors are,
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you know,
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like I said,
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it just challenges you in every way.
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And then back to your point,
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exercise or movement,
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you know,
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I believe there's five critical areas in a person's life and physical,
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mental,
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Social career and spiritual are what I believe the five areas of life that we have
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to assign 20 percent importance to.
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And the physical part is critical is because there's so much interlinked with what
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we do with our bodies,
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what we put into our bodies,
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how we treat our bodies.
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And so exercise is one of those avenues to help facilitate healthier living.
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Well,
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I was going to say,
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as you were saying of the physical activity part of it,
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I know that's really when I started to kind of get back into my tennis roots again.
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Yeah.
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was when we became sober,
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it was like,
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what is something that I can do that I associate with being sober?
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Because I played tennis all my life and childhood.
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And that's kind of like one area of my life where it wasn't triggered with drugs or alcohol.
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And so I can kind of tap into that childhood fun or excitement again.
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And
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that's really what helped me and getting back into doing a lot of that because I
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never really associated that with drinking.
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So it was like, what's an old, you know, hobby that I can do again and relate to.
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And that really helped me just kind of get endorphins going in a, you know, a good, healthy way.
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It's it's kind of known within at least like recovery communities.
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January is a heavier month of people in meetings because it's, you know, new year, new me.
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And and that's great.
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Like it does work.
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January is the biggest birthday month of all the months.
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But my question would be.
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about i know for me i've been like it's january 1st i'm in and like maybe i'm like
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okay i'm gonna finally kind of get help but then january 2nd rolls around and i've
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changed my mind and kind of this is probably where your book would be a great
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resource to kind of come right in at where maybe someone's in accepting and then
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they change their mind because i have to assume that happens quite often
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Yeah, that's actually a very good point.
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I actually did a...
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I mentioned that in one of my media coverages,
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the difference between resolutions,
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New Year's resolutions,
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for example,
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and goal settings.
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And just to let you know,
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in my therapy a lot,
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these last four months of the year,
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I start preparing my clients probably around September-ish or so,
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or even October's because...
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There's just an assumption that this last quarter of the year means something very
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widely accepted,
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which is celebration and fun and happiness and joyfulness,
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jubilation,
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family unification,
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indulgence.
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However, one thing I like to give clients permission that it's a big struggle.
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A lot of people, the holidays mean something very different.
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Some people may have lost a loved one.
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Someone may have
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had a traumatic event happen, and some of people's worst use came during the holidays.
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And so what I like to do with people instead of a New Year's resolution is that's
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exactly what happens.
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You want to quit smoking a pack of cigarettes a day,
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but what's going to happen is I'm going to smoke like two packs a day for the month
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of December and start clean in January,
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or I'm going to quit alcohol,
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get completely dry and sober January 1st,
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but I'm going to have a bender the last two weeks of December.
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And
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New Year's Eve and you create this bad habit, essentially.
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And then when you come January 1st,
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It's like this steep hill.
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And then when you have a lapse or relapse, then it starts to cycle all over again.
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You feel helpless and hopeless.
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And what's the purpose?
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And the cycle starts all over again.
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I rather have people,
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for example,
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if they want to stop smoking cigarettes,
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come November,
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you're going down to maybe two less cigarettes a day to maybe come December 31st,
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you're down to three cigarettes a day.
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Come January 1st, I'm going to cut down to one cigarette a day and so forth.
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So it's momentum rather than this brand new beginning.
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It's momentum that I've already created.
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And it's just January 1st will be just momentum.
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For example, for someone in meetings, man, I've been psyching on meetings.
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I've been going to meetings four days a week.
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I'm going to do five days a week this time, right?
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And so that's what I like to do.
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And you see a lot more success when people are just building on momentum that
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they've already created.
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You know, that's a good point because, yeah, I never thought of it like that.
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But I do know anytime we were preparing to quit anything that night or two before
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it was go all out because it's like we're going to go out with a bang before we
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give up anything.
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And,
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yeah,
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it's just going to make it harder to quit when it comes time to make that actual
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jump because you just spent the last 48 hours getting used to,
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you know,
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going hard.
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Well, not to mention the hangover and then relief from the hangover.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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And so, yeah.
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It's like now I have to because I feel so bad that,
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you know,
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if I'm just going to get to normal so I can work or do anything normal,
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then I need it.
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Well,
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and I also think you I've seen people that it they don't enjoy the recovery part
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because now they're like just fisting trying to get through the week and they're really,
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really struggling where it's like you can actually enjoy.
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It can be a happy time.
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Like for us,
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it was like getting new glasses,
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like we got to see the world again and it doesn't have to be a.
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like you're just so stubborn you're not gonna you know you're and then you make it
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to the end of the month and then again you go hard and you're like i'm gonna make
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up for this whole month i didn't drink and exactly i don't know what you say to the
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patients that are like hey uh so yeah i've been holding out now i went overload and
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now i'm back in square one yeah it's the mind games that what i what i call the
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disease that's all the mind games it's set up yeah you know as you know it's a
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setup and yeah so um but yeah
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That's what I've been navigating through with a lot of clients.
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And,
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uh,
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you see a lot of people enter treatment,
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you know,
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beginning of the year and,
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and then so,
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but,
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um,
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but I'm glad you recognize that as well.
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So in California, do you have trouble dealing with like the legalization of marijuana or weed?
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Like, does that play a hard time into your practice?
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If people are like,
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well,
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I'm not drinking,
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but maybe they're smoking and they're like,
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well,
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it's legal here.
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And, you know, in Texas, it's not legal where that's where we are.
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Well, even before the legalization, it's been a rising issue.
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I just think accessibility makes it a little bit,
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and with the legality of it,
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it makes it more accessible.
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But we were seeing a lot before the legalization, a lot more marijuana-dued psychosis, right?
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You know, marijuana, 30 years ago, people wouldn't, as they're...
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you know,
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um,
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DOC would not be marijuana 30 years ago,
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you know,
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it would,
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but nowadays that's their primary drug.
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And you're seeing,
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like I said,
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a lot of,
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um,
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um,
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sub marijuana induced psychosis,
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uh,
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presenting and that being their only drug of choice.
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And so,
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uh,
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one of the things that I like to tell people and I do write about it is because I
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get this question a lot is that the
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I'm not against things like THC and alcohol and opiates.
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Of course, the illegal more.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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I was like, yeah.
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Against like the heroines and the meth and crystal and all that stuff and cocaine.
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But because there are people who can engage in substances and not be a problem.
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And there's people that can have a glass of wine with their seafood and be able to manage that.
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There's people who could smoke THC for anxiety or through cancer treatment or for insomnia.
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Yeah.
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and not overindulge.
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And so there's a people that can take a regimen of opiates for a shoulder surgery
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and not transition to heroin or anything else.
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And so the reality is though,
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is that if someone has a certain risk factor is that they have a family history of
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addiction or they themselves have a history of addiction or substance use,
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they have a underlying mental health condition,
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Is that a mind-altering substance, such as the ones I told you, can put this person at risk.
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It will make them more sensitive to an underlying condition,
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bring about the condition sooner or later,
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or it can exacerbate existing symptoms.
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And so that's kind of where it battles that argument.
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I get a lot of people like, well, THC is natural.
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Yeah.
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You know, and so forth.
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I said, yes, but you fall under a certain risk factor.
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Right.
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And that you have to be very mindful of.
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And that's what I believe it is.
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It's a risk factor.
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There's no absolute.
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But it's more.
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Oh, no, I've seen people drink normally.
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I mean, I'm always I used to be baffled by it.
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I've seen it.
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I've seen people that can just party one time and.
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Or even walk away from it, you know, and that's not my experience, but I've seen it.
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Yeah, there's there's there's there are I would say those people who all of a sudden can just.
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wake up and that's it, and I'm done.
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I believe those are what we fall under the outlier range.
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Sometimes a triggering event,
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maybe a near life experience,
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maybe a family member or a medical condition,
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going to jail,
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that could be their triggering moment.
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But I would say those are more on the rare side.
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Most of the people who end up,
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it all depends too,
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I believe,
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in how extensive their use was,
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the drug of choice that they use,
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family dynamic support system.
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There's a lot of determining factors.
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But most of the people that I've worked with in treatment and going on almost 15
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years was most of them there were put in a situation where they had to make a choice.
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Their spouse was saying, hey, we're going to divorce.
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You can't see the kids.
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You're going to jail or you're going to treatment.
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All those type of scenarios.
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Or you drink some more, your liver is going to go kaput and you're going to die.
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And sometimes they don't care.
(00:18:25):
And, you know, that's the thing.
(00:18:26):
Sometimes they don't care.
(00:18:27):
Someone at one of the groups that I attend where they were in the hospital and were
(00:18:33):
a few days from passing away just because they were told,
(00:18:37):
you know,
(00:18:38):
you can't drink anymore.
(00:18:40):
You're going to die.
(00:18:41):
Your kidneys are going to shut down and die if you drink anymore.
(00:18:44):
And they were a few months sober before they ended up drinking again and back in the hospital.
(00:18:50):
And it's just a weird thing.
(00:18:52):
Like you said,
(00:18:53):
you get this dilemma where it's like,
(00:18:55):
you can't do it anymore or else this is going to happen,
(00:18:58):
whether it's a divorce,
(00:18:59):
not see the kids or even just death.
(00:19:02):
Like you think that would be the biggest reason to stop.
(00:19:06):
And yet for some addicts,
(00:19:09):
the disease in us is just saying,
(00:19:11):
no,
(00:19:12):
he probably like,
(00:19:14):
what does he know?
(00:19:15):
people where they absolutely are completely disconnected and apathetic towards life
(00:19:19):
where they want to die,
(00:19:22):
so to speak.
(00:19:23):
Where I try to teach families is that sometimes a lot of things that they could do
(00:19:32):
on their front,
(00:19:32):
and that's where I talk about
(00:19:34):
Putting your loved one to a point of desperation Now let's assuming that there's
(00:19:37):
still a part of them that wants to live that still that that don't want to not live
(00:19:43):
anymore is Sometimes we put someone in a level of desperation That that when
(00:19:49):
they're desperate they'll do anything to relieve of that desperation That's kind of
(00:19:53):
where the strategies come from in my book.
(00:19:55):
You can't love someone out of their disease and you're right
(00:19:59):
You know,
(00:19:59):
you can't tell someone,
(00:20:00):
well,
(00:20:00):
hey,
(00:20:00):
you have kids,
(00:20:01):
you know,
(00:20:02):
or you have a job,
(00:20:02):
you have a career,
(00:20:03):
you have a spouse,
(00:20:04):
when they're really,
(00:20:05):
really deep into it and they've been completely shut off.
(00:20:08):
And sometimes you put them in a level of extreme desperation and you give them a choice,
(00:20:13):
an option.
(00:20:14):
You're not telling them what they can and cannot do.
(00:20:16):
You're just giving that option.
(00:20:17):
What I find is many, many people truly can't do real prison or jail.
(00:20:23):
People can't do true homelessness.
(00:20:27):
And I'm talking about homelessness,
(00:20:29):
dumpster diving,
(00:20:32):
you know,
(00:20:32):
on that street,
(00:20:33):
living under park benches,
(00:20:35):
homelessness.
(00:20:37):
And a lot of people really can't do psych facilities.
(00:20:40):
I mean, it's really long-term.
(00:20:41):
Yes, there's homeless people that couldn't do it.
(00:20:44):
And there's people who can do jail and prison.
(00:20:47):
But I'm assuming for the most part, they'd rather be somewhere else than there.
(00:20:52):
And so that's what I help families strategize is you give them the option and
(00:20:57):
choice that,
(00:20:57):
hey,
(00:20:58):
we want to be part of your life and we'll always love and care about you.
(00:21:02):
It's just this is what we're going to support and not support.
(00:21:04):
And I've seen it countless times where family members still come from a loving place.
(00:21:10):
And it's those connections that they make with people that when they're at that
(00:21:15):
point where it's time to make a choice,
(00:21:19):
They'll remember a lot of those connections and they'll give them a reason to want
(00:21:26):
to desire and get better.
(00:21:27):
I mean, and he was too when we got sober.
(00:21:30):
And, you know, I thought as a mom, I was like, oh, I have a child now.
(00:21:35):
Like, this is going to make the disease go away.
(00:21:38):
you know and um that i stayed sober during pregnancy that yeah there were all these
(00:21:43):
things and it thankfully i just took that moment of clarity i had and ran with it
(00:21:48):
and my mom waited till who she's 10 years sober um i i was willing to do anything
(00:21:55):
to change and she's like are you willing to do anything and
(00:21:59):
that's how we ended up getting help now that we're parents the bars so that will
(00:22:04):
keep us sober but then we brought the bars to us and you know we made our house the
(00:22:10):
drinking spot because we still had friends that would come over and drink heavy
(00:22:14):
till three four in the morning while he was asleep and we would you know just drink
(00:22:22):
all the time at the house you did was you lowered your
(00:22:25):
the risk factors.
(00:22:27):
And so, you know, one thing I talk about is the risk factor curve.
(00:22:32):
And I don't know if you remember,
(00:22:33):
speaking of COVID,
(00:22:34):
Dr.
(00:22:35):
Fauci always talked about,
(00:22:36):
we've got to flatten that risk curve.
(00:22:38):
What he was saying is that,
(00:22:41):
you know,
(00:22:41):
the way to lower your getting infected by COVID is there's certain things you have
(00:22:46):
to do,
(00:22:47):
right?
(00:22:47):
Is you wear a mask, you
(00:22:49):
social distance you wash your hands you you know take vaccine and that's that's
(00:22:57):
what I tell people but did he say that that curve will ever be completely flat and
(00:23:02):
non-existent no we're always going to have that risk and same thing with I believe
(00:23:06):
in in dealing with addiction or mental health is there's going to be that risk
(00:23:11):
factor but our job is to flatten that risk curve as much as possible such as
(00:23:16):
One thing you mentioned is people you're hanging out with,
(00:23:19):
if they're drinking a lot,
(00:23:21):
they're not in recovery,
(00:23:22):
your risk factors dramatically skyrocket because fellowship is critically important.
(00:23:29):
And of course, you're right.
(00:23:30):
You weren't access to bars and sometimes money was an issue.
(00:23:34):
So you lower those risk factors.
(00:23:36):
And so that's the goal.
(00:23:38):
I believe in people's recovery and the strength of their recovery is meaning that
(00:23:43):
they have obviously lower risk factors and a high level of protective factors.
(00:23:47):
Protective factors are basically the antithesis of the risk factors,
(00:23:51):
such as healthy fellowship,
(00:23:52):
meetings,
(00:23:53):
therapy,
(00:23:53):
mindfulness techniques,
(00:23:55):
working the steps and all those things.
(00:23:57):
And so that's kind of what the goal is.
(00:23:59):
Are we lowering our risk factors and are we increasing our protective factors?
(00:24:05):
Absolutely.
(00:24:06):
And I wanted to ask,
(00:24:08):
as far as I saw on your website,
(00:24:10):
which we're going to link in the show notes,
(00:24:13):
do you work with people only in California?
(00:24:15):
Are you Zoom-based?
(00:24:17):
Like if someone's listening to the show and they're like,
(00:24:19):
wow,
(00:24:19):
this sounds like something I would like to inquire or maybe work with you one-on-one,
(00:24:24):
are they able to book that service?
(00:24:25):
Well, it depends on what type of service.
(00:24:26):
As a licensed psychologist,
(00:24:28):
like if I was to see someone as a client and working one-on-one with them and
(00:24:33):
on some interventions and more of a psychological based type thing then I would
(00:24:40):
only be able to see clients in that capacity under my California license so only
(00:24:45):
California license but educating family members on things like that I can work a
(00:24:52):
Yes.
(00:24:52):
And your book.
(00:24:54):
Anyone can order your book.
(00:24:55):
And I saw that it's available everywhere.
(00:24:57):
So, I mean, you can.
(00:24:59):
That's a great tool.
(00:25:00):
And again, it has amazing, amazing reviews.
(00:25:03):
And the coaching.
(00:25:04):
Yeah.
(00:25:04):
So that level of coaching,
(00:25:06):
I'm able to work with people on that level because it's more of a psychoeducation
(00:25:10):
and so forth rather than like an individual or type of psychotherapy.
(00:25:15):
One thing, if I may say, you highlight a couple things is I do talk about 25 must-knows.
(00:25:19):
I don't know if you came across that.
(00:25:22):
And those are what I believe are the 25 most essential knowledges.
(00:25:27):
And a lot of those knowledge was based on those questions,
(00:25:31):
those challenges that these families were dealing with.
(00:25:35):
And so the 25 must-knows,
(00:25:37):
whether it be you're brand new to mental health or subs addiction or you've been
(00:25:41):
navigating through years as a family member,
(00:25:43):
you're a therapist an educator who is a graduate student or undergrad or you've an
(00:25:48):
expert yourself it is what i believe the most essential knowledge is i talk about
(00:25:53):
things like the myths of suicide i talk about the reason why someone uses a
(00:25:58):
substance to cope is simply because it works right you wouldn't be using it if it
(00:26:03):
didn't work for what it was originally intended but of course
(00:26:07):
As you get tolerant, it becomes counterproductive, dysfunctional.
(00:26:10):
But one of the things I do mention is the first must know is you have to have hope,
(00:26:15):
whether it be that's a person struggling or the family members who feel helpless is
(00:26:20):
because hope is this belief that something can change or something good can happen
(00:26:24):
is because I've worked with some very,
(00:26:26):
very
(00:26:26):
down and out cases and people who attempted suicide,
(00:26:30):
you know,
(00:26:30):
just 48 hours prior to coming to treatment or people who were wandering the street
(00:26:34):
homeless and psychotic hearing voices to people who had a drug overdose and they're
(00:26:39):
able to get back on track and live healthier life.
(00:26:41):
And so I like to tell these people, family members, people struggling is there is still hope.
(00:26:46):
You just have to change the strategies because what you've been doing hasn't been working.
(00:26:50):
And the last thing,
(00:26:51):
too,
(00:26:51):
that it's really important is I talk about the different phases of the recovery process.
(00:26:55):
And the phase one is 30 to 90 days.
(00:26:57):
That's where you see most people struggle,
(00:27:00):
family members disband and give up,
(00:27:03):
or the person relapses is because they're going through,
(00:27:07):
whether it be withdrawals,
(00:27:08):
the post-acute withdrawals,
(00:27:10):
or they're going through just unhealthy relationships,
(00:27:14):
toxicity,
(00:27:15):
unraveling traumas.
(00:27:17):
But you've got to get them through that first phase of 30 to 90 days because
(00:27:20):
there's a lot of amazing healing that can take place,
(00:27:22):
whether it be on a medicine level,
(00:27:25):
an abstinence level,
(00:27:26):
talking about their trauma level,
(00:27:28):
creating new fellowship level.
(00:27:31):
And so that's why I can tell family members,
(00:27:33):
just hang in there and do whatever you can to keep them in,
(00:27:36):
especially in that first 30 to 90 days.
(00:27:38):
Yeah, 100%.
(00:27:40):
And I can...
(00:27:43):
again from experience um what helped me and i mean it can be pretty much anyone is
(00:27:49):
i got a sponsor and filtering some of those questions that my head manifested it's
(00:27:56):
almost like i thought of you know a dog trying to get out of like a guarded fence
(00:28:01):
you know like
(00:28:02):
You're literally looking for any hole in it.
(00:28:05):
It's not that it had anything to do with me.
(00:28:07):
It was the addiction is like, it's going to try and manifest its way.
(00:28:12):
It's normal.
(00:28:13):
Like that's, it's a, it's a drug.
(00:28:16):
That's what it,
(00:28:16):
you know,
(00:28:17):
if you're at the point of addiction again,
(00:28:19):
I'm not talking about someone who.
(00:28:22):
has a glass or two of wine.
(00:28:24):
I'm talking like we were drinking like Handlesworth.
(00:28:27):
And,
(00:28:28):
you know,
(00:28:28):
your brain's going to try and rationalize in circles and running that by someone,
(00:28:34):
which was my sponsor,
(00:28:36):
saying it out loud,
(00:28:37):
working through it.
(00:28:38):
is really what helped those first 90 days um it's again it doesn't have to be a
(00:28:44):
sponsor it could be therapist husband but sometimes just saying it out loud so you
(00:28:49):
get it out of your head um but it's hard there's this t it's just i know from the
(00:28:55):
other side is you can feel a little crazy and i tell people i work with as sponsor
(00:29:01):
sponsee i'm like there are no crazy thoughts in your first couple of months because
(00:29:08):
someone else has had them you're not the only one you know and uh that's yeah i
(00:29:15):
just i guess that's my kind of
(00:29:18):
My side of being the one addicted is sharing, whether that be with whoever.
(00:29:26):
Again, psychologists would be the top priority.
(00:29:30):
That would be the best option.
(00:29:31):
But even so,
(00:29:34):
I think that's kind of like the advocating of asking for help,
(00:29:37):
but that's like the hardest.
(00:29:39):
the thousand pound phone you know it's it's so heavy and so hard to call but if you
(00:29:45):
just pick it up um it'd be amazed what you see on the other side
(00:29:51):
Yeah, and that's what people don't realize.
(00:29:53):
You highlight, again, a good important point.
(00:29:56):
And so three factors that I talk about that's critically important for a recovery program.
(00:30:00):
And so if I can talk real quickly,
(00:30:02):
recovery is,
(00:30:03):
the first thing we think about recovery is,
(00:30:05):
oh,
(00:30:05):
what substance or what medical condition are you recovering from?
(00:30:09):
The reality is, I believe we all have our own version of a disease.
(00:30:13):
A disease can be, of course, a medical condition.
(00:30:16):
It could be a psychiatric condition, a substance addiction.
(00:30:19):
But it could be any entity or entities that causes some challenges in our life.
(00:30:23):
Selfishness, racism, materialism, hedonism.
(00:30:27):
All of those things can cause challenges in our life.
(00:30:30):
And if it's hard to break free from and manage, then that's our version of disease.
(00:30:34):
So we're all in some form of recovery,
(00:30:36):
which is just in a general sense,
(00:30:38):
a healthier strategy or plan for better,
(00:30:42):
healthier living outcomes.
(00:30:44):
And so, but I talk about recovery.
(00:30:46):
a lot of these elements that differentiates from what I've seen,
(00:30:50):
a strong versus a weaker recovery program.
(00:30:52):
And so some of the three elements of it are structure,
(00:30:56):
routine,
(00:30:57):
and what you mentioned,
(00:30:58):
accountability.
(00:30:58):
Accountability are those entities that are going to hold you accountable.
(00:31:02):
And that could be
(00:31:04):
a a child that could be a spouse that could be a career that could be a family
(00:31:08):
member that could be a lot of different things and when people ask me like hey dr
(00:31:13):
brian why do i have to go to that meeting they always talk about god you know they
(00:31:17):
always talk about you know their their their newcomer stories and it triggers me i
(00:31:22):
said hey
(00:31:23):
You know,
(00:31:23):
if there's one word that I could summarize why you'd go to a meeting,
(00:31:26):
why you see a therapist,
(00:31:28):
why you would go to a job.
(00:31:30):
If there's one word I can only use to define it, it's accountability.
(00:31:33):
Right.
(00:31:33):
And you are there.
(00:31:34):
Yes, there's a lot of great elements that come with going to a meeting.
(00:31:37):
There's fellowship, there's commitments, there's sponsorships, there's.
(00:31:41):
speakers there's education but accountability you know is a form you are there at
(00:31:46):
least accountable for that hour or hopefully for that day that you are being held
(00:31:49):
accountable and so so it's really really critically important to the point where I
(00:31:54):
tell people that are leaving treatment let's say they were there for like 30 to 90
(00:31:58):
days you need to have at least five entities that are going to hold you accountable
(00:32:01):
and usually these are five human beings right that will hold you accountable not
(00:32:07):
curb their recommendations based on emotions they will these are the ones that will
(00:32:12):
tell you that okay what are you doing get back on track you're slipping and so so
(00:32:18):
yes i just wanted to really highlight how important accountability is
(00:32:22):
Is there one substance that you kind of deal with more in when it comes to recovery
(00:32:27):
or addiction or one that's on the rise recently?
(00:32:31):
Well, definitely, I would say the most pervasive ones.
(00:32:35):
Well, there's quite a few, but I would say alcohol, of course.
(00:32:39):
Yeah, all of them.
(00:32:39):
But alcohol definitely is because it's been around.
(00:32:44):
It's available and it's cheap, right?
(00:32:48):
Yeah.
(00:32:48):
You can buy a handle for what, like eight bucks?
(00:32:50):
Yeah.
(00:32:51):
Not the best quality.
(00:32:52):
Yeah, it depends on the quality, but yeah.
(00:32:55):
Some rough.
(00:32:58):
Oh, I'm so glad it worked over.
(00:32:59):
Oh, God.
(00:33:00):
Yeah.
(00:33:01):
So, alcohol definitely is a very pervasive one.
(00:33:04):
Then we got the benzodiazepines, which are the anti-anxiety meds, such as the Xanax, Ativan's.
(00:33:10):
You've got the THC, that's huge.
(00:33:13):
Of course, fentanyl.
(00:33:14):
Meth, right?
(00:33:16):
And I can tell you this, though.
(00:33:19):
Based on my work, meth seems to have some really, really challenging...
(00:33:27):
post acute withdrawals um yeah it really does you know meth is just just bad news
(00:33:34):
not to say those other drugs aren't but um yeah but there's even even adhd
(00:33:39):
medications you know the adderals the redolins you're seeing a lot more people
(00:33:43):
present as that drug of choice so i think the gamut cocaine is coming back or has
(00:33:49):
been coming back
(00:33:50):
for a while.
(00:33:53):
I would say the whole gamut is out there.
(00:33:55):
The problem is the accessibility.
(00:33:57):
You can literally buy substances.
(00:34:00):
Kids can buy substances, be mailed to their door.
(00:34:03):
We need a lot of work with
(00:34:07):
um,
(00:34:07):
supervise oversight that's going out there in the e-commerce world,
(00:34:11):
because I know people that have been buying THC lace stuff,
(00:34:14):
fentanyl stuff,
(00:34:15):
kids,
(00:34:16):
teenagers.
(00:34:17):
Well,
(00:34:17):
and the,
(00:34:18):
to get like the THC and a vape cartridge and stuff is becoming pretty easy to get.
(00:34:23):
And I guess I didn't think about that with the internet and everything.
(00:34:27):
Cause it's,
(00:34:28):
It wasn't so accessible,
(00:34:29):
I think,
(00:34:29):
when I was in high school,
(00:34:30):
but it definitely seems like it's just getting more and more accessible as the
(00:34:35):
years progress to get whatever you want.
(00:34:39):
Well,
(00:34:39):
there's also the factor of connection and it's like they just as we spoke to a guy
(00:34:45):
who he works with teenagers and he goes and speaks at high schools about addiction
(00:34:49):
and
(00:34:50):
you know it's all about connection and they're like oh if i go smoke this vape or
(00:34:56):
go weed like i can make a friend and it's like you can also make sober friends but
(00:35:00):
yeah it doesn't seem like you can present it at the time again it's inclusion and
(00:35:07):
connection and
(00:35:10):
Sorry.
(00:35:10):
Go.
(00:35:10):
Yeah.
(00:35:11):
I was like, at least that's what I find or hear.
(00:35:14):
But acts are resourceful.
(00:35:17):
They're so resourceful.
(00:35:19):
We were.
(00:35:19):
Yeah.
(00:35:20):
I mean.
(00:35:21):
In the ways where people can do it through Snapchat,
(00:35:24):
through,
(00:35:25):
you know,
(00:35:25):
there's a lot of ways where people can go under the radar and sell.
(00:35:29):
And so it just challenges have always been there.
(00:35:33):
And,
(00:35:33):
you know,
(00:35:34):
we have to as parents or peers or sponsors,
(00:35:39):
we have to be educated as well and and have that level of accountability in place.
(00:35:45):
Yeah.
(00:35:45):
And I think another thing the meeting kind of gives that hits your pillar is the
(00:35:48):
hope because you see a lot of hope in the room.
(00:35:53):
And I know that the God thing,
(00:35:56):
man,
(00:35:56):
I know I get that's the number one like thing that people complain about or they
(00:36:03):
say like they don't fit in with.
(00:36:06):
But when I was told in a meeting,
(00:36:08):
like look for the similarities and not the differences,
(00:36:11):
like look with a
(00:36:13):
a happy mind, you know, say, oh, I can identify with that.
(00:36:16):
And then if you don't identify,
(00:36:18):
you're just like,
(00:36:19):
OK,
(00:36:19):
that person's entitled to their opinion,
(00:36:21):
you know,
(00:36:23):
going from that,
(00:36:24):
like looking at a glass half full versus half empty.
(00:36:28):
in a meeting really made a difference for me because the there are people and you
(00:36:35):
don't there's no rules or restrictions around meetings um if you find one and you
(00:36:40):
don't like it there's another one around the corner that is like a 180 of the one
(00:36:44):
you just went to some are more conservative some are more lax um i would never
(00:36:51):
suggest i think the rule is try five you know and
(00:36:55):
Not just one and be like, okay, that one could have been a bad day.
(00:36:59):
It could have been a bad topic.
(00:37:00):
It could have...
(00:37:02):
whatever it was um but the hope and the accountability and um you know the
(00:37:08):
connection the seeing other people smile it might have been a minute since you've
(00:37:13):
seen someone genuinely smile or laugh like i remember being in the meeting and
(00:37:19):
being like i thought it was gonna be like a people in a dark alley in a room with
(00:37:22):
coffee and it's not these people are well put together they're they get their life
(00:37:26):
back
(00:37:28):
And one thing that's really important is though,
(00:37:29):
especially for your listeners,
(00:37:31):
is that 12-step recovery is definitely a way and there could be a great deal of success,
(00:37:39):
but it's not the only way,
(00:37:40):
right?
(00:37:41):
It's not the only way.
(00:37:42):
And what I usually tell people as well,
(00:37:44):
because in the treatment that I worked at,
(00:37:46):
12-step was part of the recovery process.
(00:37:49):
It wasn't 12-step based, but it was
(00:37:51):
part of the process and when they struggled with that I said well if you don't have
(00:37:56):
the God component in your life is that
(00:37:59):
Do you believe in any entity greater than you?
(00:38:01):
And that entity could be outer space.
(00:38:03):
It could be mother nature.
(00:38:04):
It could be the ocean.
(00:38:06):
It could be one person finally said, it's my better self, right?
(00:38:10):
That's his greater power, better self.
(00:38:12):
And so you go into it because a lot of times people,
(00:38:15):
especially when they want to resist something,
(00:38:16):
they'll deconstruct everything.
(00:38:18):
You know,
(00:38:18):
the people,
(00:38:19):
I mean,
(00:38:20):
not to take anything away,
(00:38:21):
but the people who deconstructed a lot of the 12 steps were people who were in this
(00:38:26):
level of education where,
(00:38:28):
you know,
(00:38:28):
give me an explanation to it or I'm going to philosophize this,
(00:38:33):
you know,
(00:38:35):
deconstruct it all the way to its basic atom and find a reason to resist it.
(00:38:41):
And yeah, just any entity that's greater than you that you can...
(00:38:45):
believe that's just bigger than you.
(00:38:47):
A hill can be bigger than you.
(00:38:49):
And that gentleman who did that because he was very resistant,
(00:38:51):
he just said,
(00:38:52):
okay,
(00:38:54):
my healthier self right now is going to be...
(00:38:56):
And I've seen it happen before.
(00:38:57):
I've seen people who are atheists when they leave treatment.
(00:39:01):
It's like, okay, maybe there is something out there.
(00:39:04):
People who are agnostic.
(00:39:06):
they okay maybe there's a god and people who were very connected with their god had
(00:39:10):
a closer relationship and so i've seen that happen uh before in many levels and so
(00:39:17):
just yeah there's it's not the only way you know there's smart recovery and there's
(00:39:20):
all those different different models some churches have their own modalities some
(00:39:25):
religions and so forth so um it is one element because of what it provides right
(00:39:31):
with
(00:39:32):
Also therapy.
(00:39:33):
Like, I mean, I work right now.
(00:39:35):
I work with my therapist on a deeper level and doing some different like CBT
(00:39:40):
methods and working on the trauma that maybe I drank at.
(00:39:44):
Now, again, I got sober through 12 steps, but you learn that beyond recovery is...
(00:39:52):
there's different levels.
(00:39:53):
So like you said,
(00:39:53):
that first,
(00:39:54):
like,
(00:39:54):
you know,
(00:39:54):
30 to 90 days,
(00:39:57):
you're just kind of getting your footing,
(00:39:58):
you're learning the game,
(00:40:00):
you're the support support,
(00:40:02):
but then,
(00:40:02):
you know,
(00:40:03):
again,
(00:40:04):
you grow,
(00:40:04):
there's different and not everyone who grows the same rate.
(00:40:08):
There is no,
(00:40:10):
um,
(00:40:10):
and what works for you might not work for someone else,
(00:40:13):
but it might,
(00:40:14):
it might not.
(00:40:15):
why don't like after um you know i'm going through the a and working the steps and
(00:40:21):
getting sober that way then going back and looking at it past already i'm already
(00:40:27):
quote unquote recovered or alcohol is not a big issue for me but re-looking at
(00:40:32):
those steps it became more of oh this is kind of like a blueprint on how to live
(00:40:36):
life to be a successful human being
(00:40:39):
to just be, you know, a good person.
(00:40:42):
And it's like if I had would have had this in place growing up as a teenager,
(00:40:46):
you know,
(00:40:47):
this would have been a really good structure blueprint to have going forward
(00:40:52):
because I didn't have that.
(00:40:53):
And I just kind of went through life half assing a lot of different things.
(00:40:58):
and using drugs and alcohol to fall back on as,
(00:41:02):
you know,
(00:41:03):
the you know,
(00:41:04):
to use that as,
(00:41:05):
oh,
(00:41:05):
I'm blaming.
(00:41:06):
I use I would blame things on certain things because I was drunk or but I would
(00:41:11):
also use that if I succeeded at anything.
(00:41:14):
So it was just this weird fallback plan to always get drunk.
(00:41:19):
But the steps all of a sudden became this good blueprint of how to live life.
(00:41:24):
and that's what again give it to something other than yourself because i think um
(00:41:30):
as bill says in the book you know we like to control and it's i think typical of
(00:41:34):
addicts that you know we think we can do it differently that's what relapse is is
(00:41:38):
we go out and we're like this time's not going to be like last time and you get to
(00:41:45):
that again it's just that uh they call the wash cycle you know it's over and over
(00:41:50):
but um
(00:41:53):
For this time of year.
(00:41:54):
Yeah.
(00:41:54):
I guess one of the things that we'd say,
(00:41:57):
go to your website,
(00:41:58):
you know,
(00:41:59):
you have a lot of good resources.
(00:42:00):
Your book is widely available.
(00:42:02):
So if you're in this hearing this and you're having someone who's a loved one reach
(00:42:09):
out to you,
(00:42:09):
just,
(00:42:10):
you said,
(00:42:11):
first off,
(00:42:11):
remember there's hope.
(00:42:13):
And you write and share about that hope in the different 25 strategies and steps,
(00:42:19):
like a blueprint to helping your loved one.
(00:42:22):
And thankfully Amazon is next day.
(00:42:24):
So, I mean, you don't have to wait very long, but, or even like, I think I saw Kindle as well.
(00:42:30):
Kindle.
(00:42:30):
I, I've had people, um,
(00:42:33):
Ask me a couple things.
(00:42:35):
Audio, right?
(00:42:36):
I've had some Spanish people ask me if you can get it translated.
(00:42:39):
But I think the next on the docket is doing a workbook.
(00:42:42):
I know a lot of people in recovery like workbooks.
(00:42:44):
So I've got a lot of people.
(00:42:46):
Love it.
(00:42:46):
We love workbooks.
(00:42:47):
I loved homework at first.
(00:42:49):
Because your mind hasn't been working for so long that you're like,
(00:42:54):
it's nice to remind you of what you're capable of in something as simple as...
(00:43:01):
filling out a 10 questionnaire, it's like, Oh my God, I can do this again.
(00:43:06):
Because when you're drinking as often as we were,
(00:43:08):
it's like that looked as,
(00:43:11):
um,
(00:43:12):
it's just,
(00:43:13):
you know,
(00:43:14):
you get this book and it's like,
(00:43:15):
okay,
(00:43:15):
workbook is,
(00:43:16):
it's a little bit shorter version.
(00:43:18):
It's to the point and it's, there's things you can write down.
(00:43:21):
So, so that's probably going to be my first thing.
(00:43:25):
the writing part is the you know it gets out of your head like my emma was a
(00:43:29):
therapist in um santa monica and she was 20 years there and she always told me um
(00:43:35):
if i really wanted to get deep in my answers was writing with my left hand you
(00:43:39):
write with your non-dominant hand and it can pull out a different part of your
(00:43:43):
brain and i mean there's a part to writing your inventory and step four again
(00:43:49):
The similarity is not the differences.
(00:43:51):
It's 100 years old.
(00:43:52):
Yes, it was not wrote by people that studied it as much.
(00:43:58):
I'm sure they wish they had more time.
(00:43:59):
I know Bill did.
(00:44:01):
It's, again, a great tool.
(00:44:03):
It saved my life, but...
(00:44:06):
There are so many ways to get help.
(00:44:09):
And if you're,
(00:44:10):
if you just ask,
(00:44:11):
I promise you'll have a hundred resources in front of you within minutes.
(00:44:15):
Like you see on Twitter,
(00:44:17):
someone's shares that they're like 10 days sober and it has thousands of likes and
(00:44:21):
you know,
(00:44:21):
it's like,
(00:44:22):
yeah,
(00:44:22):
we do recover and we'll help.
(00:44:24):
You just got to share it.
(00:44:26):
And there's other ways to get.
(00:44:27):
And there's other, there's so many different ways.
(00:44:29):
One way.
(00:44:30):
No, no, it's not.
(00:44:31):
And there are some people that will tell you,
(00:44:33):
yeah,
(00:44:33):
it's,
(00:44:34):
if you don't do AA,
(00:44:35):
you'll be a dry drunk.
(00:44:36):
And that's just not true.
(00:44:37):
It's not true.
(00:44:39):
Um, and we're speaking as someone who's come from, you know, working the steps.
(00:44:43):
Yeah.
(00:44:44):
Um,
(00:44:45):
But just if I may add to,
(00:44:47):
you know,
(00:44:47):
so that book was originally designed for families in crisis.
(00:44:51):
They're like, my God, if my loved one doesn't get help, something bad is going to happen.
(00:44:55):
They're going to die.
(00:44:55):
They're going to harm someone.
(00:44:57):
They're going to put them put themselves in a situation they can't recover from.
(00:45:01):
So that's what it's really designed for.
(00:45:02):
I also highlight what I found as the most robust attributes of a strong recovery program.
(00:45:09):
There's like 15 or so, whether it be the structural accountability.
(00:45:14):
I talked about the three non-negotiables that family members should hold no matter
(00:45:19):
what if they're going to support their loved one.
(00:45:20):
I talk about spirituality is critical and all those different elements.
(00:45:24):
So someone who's out of recovery and looking for phase four that I call,
(00:45:28):
which is two years plus of recovery,
(00:45:30):
those are the attributes that differentiate people who continue to progress in
(00:45:34):
recovery and people who didn't.
(00:45:36):
And so it could be helpful for maybe someone who has navigated through their own
(00:45:40):
treatment and maybe want to help someone else who's having trouble and challenges.
(00:45:43):
question actually i just thought of because i've had so much outreach about it and
(00:45:48):
this is something i don't necessarily deal with other than people keep asking about
(00:45:54):
um relapsed dreams and i i have none of my own because i always have my tattoo in
(00:46:00):
my dreams and i've had nightmares about him relapsing and coming home drunk um but
(00:46:07):
a lot of people are asking like
(00:46:11):
don't know like they just like i guess they get freaked out even and maybe it
(00:46:15):
causes some like heightened anxiety insomnia of like it felt so real yeah that it
(00:46:22):
almost scares them and i've had a few people message like oh i'd love to if you
(00:46:25):
guys talked more about dreams and i'm
(00:46:28):
Like, I don't really have any.
(00:46:29):
Um, I said great.
(00:46:31):
I'm not a dream analyst, so to speak, but you know, as you know, I, um, specialize in insomnia.
(00:46:35):
And so what I had find a lot were a lot of sleep conditions or sleep disorders,
(00:46:40):
whether it be nightmare disorders or relapse,
(00:46:42):
um,
(00:46:43):
relapsed dreams is that there's some type of either stress or conflict going on,
(00:46:49):
a high degree of stress or a high degree of conflict.
(00:46:52):
And when I say conflict, we're using dreams.
(00:46:55):
There's usually a lot of people in early recovery are in conflict.
(00:46:58):
Do I want to be sober or not?
(00:46:59):
Do I want to drink or not?
(00:47:00):
Do I want to use or not?
(00:47:02):
And so those manifest itself in stress levels, anxiety that can manifest in dreams.
(00:47:06):
And so I know those dreams are very real,
(00:47:08):
People wake up and thought,
(00:47:10):
holy crap,
(00:47:10):
I need to get tested or UA'd because I feel like I just used.
(00:47:14):
And so those are very real, very normal.
(00:47:16):
But if you're familiar with the post-acute withdrawal terminology,
(00:47:20):
those changes that take place when you stop engaging in a substance and dreams are normal.
(00:47:26):
And as you get healthier and sober, those using dreams...
(00:47:30):
diminish over time,
(00:47:31):
at least the intensity,
(00:47:32):
but doesn't mean I've had people still have them every once in a while.
(00:47:36):
And so, so, so, so that's a very normal part of the process.
(00:47:40):
And it's the best thing you can do is manage your stress levels as best as possible.
(00:47:47):
And, and hopefully those using dreams will relapse.
(00:47:49):
Yes.
(00:47:50):
It's not abnormal because again, I, I,
(00:47:53):
I want to say when I had it was definitely early on when I would have a couple and
(00:47:59):
it was right.
(00:48:00):
Yeah, I would wake up in the first 30 seconds of me being up.
(00:48:03):
I was like, oh, my God, what did I do?
(00:48:05):
What happened?
(00:48:06):
And then it took me a while to realize I'm in bed.
(00:48:08):
I'm OK that that didn't happen.
(00:48:11):
I was like, this is it's five in the morning right now and it takes a while to sink in.
(00:48:16):
But yeah, I think it's when you're in some early conflict mode.
(00:48:21):
And you got to recognize if engaging in a substance for a long period of time,
(00:48:24):
it changed a lot of your neurochemistry as well.
(00:48:26):
So a lot of stuff's going on in that process, memories and stuff.
(00:48:30):
And so your brain is healing.
(00:48:31):
And that's why those first 30 to 90 days are critically, critically important.
(00:48:35):
And that's where people struggle.
(00:48:36):
It's like, oh, screw this.
(00:48:37):
Getting sober is a lot worse than using.
(00:48:40):
Right.
(00:48:40):
But that's that's the fallacy of the disease.
(00:48:42):
Right.
(00:48:42):
Oh, God.
(00:48:45):
You know.
(00:48:47):
I'm like,
(00:48:47):
and that's where you learn,
(00:48:49):
like,
(00:48:49):
and I'm learning this in post in school more rather is even like looking at,
(00:48:56):
you know,
(00:48:57):
MRIs of knowing that when you look at like a cocaine,
(00:49:00):
like cocaine,
(00:49:01):
if you've done it before,
(00:49:02):
you see it on the screen,
(00:49:04):
even in a movie,
(00:49:05):
which is why a lot of treatment centers don't recommend you watch like drug using
(00:49:09):
movies is you can highlight,
(00:49:11):
I mean,
(00:49:12):
your brain,
(00:49:13):
your dopamine receptors,
(00:49:14):
epinephrine will look like go off and.
(00:49:17):
To me,
(00:49:17):
I'm like,
(00:49:17):
oh,
(00:49:17):
my God,
(00:49:18):
that that's kind of why they don't have it at treatment centers,
(00:49:22):
because you can still activate it or the memory sense of it while you're leveling out.
(00:49:29):
I've had to do articles on which California is big on on doing the safe treat or
(00:49:35):
safe use houses and the pros and cons on that and like the doxin.
(00:49:40):
And I've had to do lots of research on those and kind of present.
(00:49:46):
pros and cons to it um which i still i don't personally know how i feel i'm like
(00:49:52):
i'm pretty i feel both are there's good arguments for both sides um and probably
(00:49:59):
towards the safe use side but it is a little weird to know you know um things even
(00:50:04):
exist i know but i'm glad because there are if people use them properly it gets
(00:50:09):
them the help they need
(00:50:11):
Again, these are all tools.
(00:50:12):
Harm reduction is definitely like anything else.
(00:50:15):
It's an option out there.
(00:50:16):
It doesn't work for everyone.
(00:50:18):
Usually the people that were focused for my book is that they've tried harm reduction.
(00:50:24):
They've microdosed.
(00:50:25):
They've done all types of their own regimen and blueprints, and it obviously didn't work.
(00:50:29):
So harm reduction, it's an option out there.
(00:50:32):
We've done the whole list.
(00:50:32):
It's the same thing as passing out condoms.
(00:50:35):
to teenagers you know and i know there's all kinds or even passing out clean
(00:50:41):
needles i mean there's places that pass out clean needles right and i mean there's
(00:50:45):
that there's that there's that whole aspect of it see it but
(00:50:50):
well thank you and i again i'll link everything in the show notes so that way
(00:50:54):
people i make it very easy i don't make you work i want to be able to just let you
(00:50:58):
click on the link and it'll take you right where you need to go and because that is
(00:51:03):
another thing the attention span is lessening and i'm learning that on the
(00:51:09):
psychology side on even just doing
(00:51:12):
digital media of how we can get attention to people in addiction because there's a
(00:51:19):
very small window and,
(00:51:21):
and you want to take advantage of that window.
(00:51:23):
So, um, learning that kind of stuff in school right now.
(00:51:26):
So yes, yes.
(00:51:28):
Thank you so much.
(00:51:29):
I was very, very, um, grateful for this.
(00:51:33):
Cause I was like, yeah, this is kind of stuff I would have done in school.
(00:51:37):
So it's cool.
(00:51:38):
Thank you for what you're doing as well.
(00:51:39):
So, um,
(00:51:41):
No.
(00:51:42):
Evan, do you want to say bye?
(00:51:43):
Bye.
(00:51:44):
Yeah.
(00:51:45):
Yeah, he's my now one.
(00:51:47):
I'm like, my amend to him was to never take a drink again.
(00:51:50):
That's good accountability.
(00:51:54):
Yeah, exactly.
(00:51:56):
And it just came with time.
(00:51:58):
Do you want to say thank you for listening to Sober Banter?
(00:52:00):
Thank you for listening to Sober Banter.
(00:52:04):
There we go.
(00:52:05):
All right.
(00:52:07):
He's great.
(00:52:08):
Bye.
(00:52:09):
Bye.
(00:52:09):
Bye.
